(english version below)

In Bangladesch kommt es aktuell zu großen Protesten in den Städten des Landes gegen das bestehende Quotensystem für Arbeitsplätze im Öffentlichen Dienst - den bisher sind mehr als die Hälfte der Arbeitsplätze für spezifische Gruppen, wie Kinder von Veteranen des Unabhängigkeitskrieges 1971 - reserviert. Von diesem System profitiere, so die Kritik der Studierenden, vor allem Unterstützer*innen der aktuellen Regierung, welche seit 2008 das Land zunehmend autoritär führt. s ist auch nicht der erste große Protest in dem Land von 170 Millionen Menschen, doch die bisherigen Proteste sind alle mehr oder weniger schnell wieder abgeflaut. Dabei ist die Lage in Bangladesch angespannt. Es herrscht eine große Kluft zwischen Arm und Reich, die sich in der Hauptstadt Dhaka symbolisch aufzeigt an den vielen Hochhäusern in Privatbesitz und den Hütten an den Straßenrändern, unter Brücken und an den Menschen, die vor den Hochhäusern auf dem Gehweg schlafen. Die politische Lage ist einseitig. Die Awami-Liga regiert mit 74,7% der Stimmen in den Parlamentswahlen 2024, Wahlen welche von unabhängigen Beobachtern als unfrei deklariert wurden. Große erfolgreiche Gewerkschaften und soziale Bewegungen treten nur selten in Erscheinung. Auf der Suche nach Antworten, warum diese Gegensätze so stark sind und wie Veränderungen im System diskutiert und angestrebt werden, ist Radio Corax in einem Café in Dhaka mit Arif ins Gespräch gekommen. Arif ist bei der Gruppe Auraj aktiv, welche sich als ein kleiner Kreis an Menschen der Analyse und Kritik des bestehenden aus anarchistischer Perspektive verschrieben haben.

(english)

An anarchist Perpsective on Bangladesh

In Bangladesh, large protests are currently taking place in the country's cities against the existing quota system for jobs in the civil service - more than half of the jobs are currently reserved for specific groups, such as children of veterans of the 1971 war of independence. According to the students' criticism, this system mainly benefits supporters of the current government, which has been running the country in an increasingly authoritarian manner since 2008. his is not the first major protest in a country of 170 million people, but previous protests have all died down more or less quickly. The situation in Bangladesh is tense. There is a huge gap between rich and poor, which is symbolized in the capital Dhaka by the many privately owned high-rise buildings and the shacks on the roadsides, under bridges and by the people sleeping on the sidewalk in front of the high-rise buildings. The political situation is one-sided. The Awami League rules with 74.7% of the vote in the 2024 parliamentary elections, which were declared unfree by independent observers. Large successful trade unions and social movements rarely make an appearance. In search of answers as to why these contrasts are so strong and how changes in the system are being discussed and sought, Radio Corax got into conversation with Arif in a café in Dhaka. Arif is active in the group Auraj, a small group of people who have dedicated themselves to analyzing and criticizing the existing system from an anarchist perspective.

Transcript:

Arif: The election system is now one of the most political crisis. On the 7th January there was a national election. The pre-election, well was alleged, vote-riggining, and the opposition party didn't participate in it. Basically, BNP and BNP-led alliance didn't participate in it. So the participation in this election of people was poor. But as a result, when the election commission released, we see 42% vote has been cast. Usually in Bangladesh, 60 or 62% vote is cast. But here's the problem. The whole election system is operated in secret through the army and army agency called TGFI.

Radio Corax: So they run the election?

Arif: Yes. And how they operate? No. It doesn't want to ask. We don't know about it. That's the problem. And if the election is pure, free, then will the situation change? I have a doubt. Actually the problem is not only the race. The opposition is also a problem. And if the election is held free and clear, we will see a legitimized autocratic government. This is legitimate. That's what we are doing.

Radio Corax: Did you go to vote?

Arif: No, no, no. Actually my vote is in Rajshri. It is a way from 300 km from Dharka. From 16 years. I never voted. On the election day, most of the day, I have to be in the Newsroom. So I couldn't vote. Actually, election has made a problem. Some people say if the election is clear, then the government will change and the power will be softened. Some people say they will topple down the fascist government. But no one actually knows what will be the next goal. No one knows. It's a big problem here. The Marxist trade unions are weak very weak. Actually, the trade union movement in Bangladesh has a long history. Once upon a time, it was the biggest trade union in South Asia also. But now it's a very small trade union. There are five or six Marxist trade unions. But no impact, no influence on the union. We have a garment industry in Bangladesh. There are 1.4 million garment workers as I know. But there is no umbrella organization. There is no single big trade union.

Radio Corax: Are there many smaller ones or only a few?

Arif: Very small. Most of them are NGO driven. Actually, these are not so functional. They actually got from West and do some things, just charity work. But it's not for the fight. It's not for the struggle. The trade union movement is very in trouble. You just described the government as fascist. Where does that come from? Obviously, they are autocratic. That's very clear. Actually, I don't want to call the government only a fascist. The whole state is on the feature of fascism because the nationalist and totalitarian rule led them to fascism. It's a problem. And the state power itself had some problem to feature which led them to fascism. It doesn't matter. Be it the Awami-League or be it BNP, the opposition. Both are same. This is quite south-eastern context. It's the same. India, Pakistan, everywhere. This problem is quite co-related.

Radio Corax: Do you have the feeling that it has changed in the last years or it has remained the same system?

Arif: Same system. The same system has been running for 15 or 16 years. Before it, there was more problem because of Islamic fundamentalism. Now, BNP is the opposition, when they were in power, they have churned granite to their opposition, Awami-League. They have killed about many national leaders of this party. Now, Awami-League is doing that and they are killing. When I was a student in 2004. Bangladesh has 64 districts. In 63 districts, there was a blast. At a time, a blast. The force was called JMB, Islamic terrorist group. They have bombed in 63 districts. This Islamic group was created by BNP and its allies, Jama'at Islam. There was a big problem there. I was a student of the University of Rajshri. There, our student leader, SM Chongle, was beaten by them. His legs, two legs, were so hurt and he could not walk.

Radio Corax: What I have experienced so far is that a lot of people ignore government politics. They turn towards, as long as I can do my business and my family is fine, I don't care what's happening.

Arif: People are frustrated with government and politics. Actually, the problem is why people don't protest. If you ask this question, I will say that Dhaka is the biggest city in Bangladesh. Every year, 2, 3, 4 hundred thousand people come and migrate to Dhaka. Now, everything is centralized in Dhaka, for jobs, for work, for day-to-day work, everything. So, the 30 Million population of Dhaka, they don't know each other. Every year, when people migrate here, the social bond is broken down in the countryside. They migrate here, so the countryside people become protestors. The leaderships, the student leaders, the journalists, everyone migrates here. After coming to Dhaka, they do not have a social bond. So, the people of Dhaka live in apartments, they have things in their rooms, and they have no communication with each other, just no social bond, no cultural bond. This is the first problem, why people are not organized. Migration is the biggest problem. And the social scientists, and the cultural activists, and the political people, no one is focusing on the people.

Radio Corax: That's really interesting, because this right for migration is a huge topic in Europe at the moment. So, that organizations like Anarchist, Marxist are all fighting for the right for people to migrate, and then here this turns into a problem for having the motivation.

Arif: It's not migration like Europe. It's the migration for job. It's the migration for a student, it's the migration for another world. And they live in a different society, where what he or she is saying at first, has no experience to live in it. In countryside, the people live in villages, they live in natural environment inside. So, in this city, they feel themselves, they are not the people of here. And, you know, there is huge traffic jam in Dhaka, huge traffic jam. If you rise in the early seven in the morning, you have to go office within nine. You have only two hours in hand to get into office. But, if a man rides seven AM, most of them cannot get into bus, because it's so crowded. Most of them cannot manage a vehicle to go to office. Secondly, you have to reach his children to schools. You have to take his children from schools. You have to reach his children then coaching center or other places. So, the old business is too tough for a man. So, all the people here are very much family-oriented.

Radio Corax: Yeah, I've heard that a lot, yes.

Arif: It's the problem of social gathering, social program. Look at this cafe, there are many good people, but there are too many rich people. And they don't have the mission each year. There is a problem in that. But that means that this urban center is really a problem for organizing. It's a social condition. Social preconditions of organizing are unprecedented. That's the problem. But in university, there are organizations. In university, university students organize, they reclaim street, they protest. There are many time clashes with government or ruling party, just for intervention. But in university, students are organized, quite organized.

Radio Corax: So, outside of Dhaka, there is actually a lot of people organizing?

Arif: There is a problem outside of Dhaka. When most of the upper class people migrate, then there is a lack of good organizations outside of Dhaka. But outside of Dhaka, there are more protests and there are possibilities. I believe there are possibilities outside of Dhaka. And there is a big struggle in recent years. It's out of Dhaka, not in India. But that would mean that you would actually have to focus political work on the country side and not on the larger cities. That's really interesting because for us in Germany, it's the other way around. In villages, people know everyone and in villages they have common interests and people know the right and wrong. And so they respond in their language. But it's not that they have these trade unions, it's not that they have these big organizations. It's quite organically organized. But in Dhaka, the whole intellectual society is not organized. The students have a program, they are quite organized but it's not enough. The trade unions, there are many trade unions but four or five are a Marxist organization. They are very poor. On the other hand, the journalists are most of them, they have trade unions but this trade union is pro-government. So the situation in Bangladesh is quite critical. But at the same time, the intellectual is raising the questions. There's some energy, non-residential Bangladeshi, they are also raising the questions. It's a good sign, actually.

Radio Corax: But I guess it's probably not with a theoretical understanding and more individual responses. If people protest, they think something's wrong but they don't necessarily have an anti-capitalist theory behind it. How would you evaluate that?

Arif: Actually, the people, listen to me, the basic challenge of people is basic needs. When the basic need is provided, when the people get jobs, when they can buy their necessary commodities and no price hike, the people think they are good, they are happy. It was the scenario but in recent times, the government has created it. There are many mega-projects in Bangladesh like the Padma Bridge which is the biggest bridge in Bangladesh. World Bank united to finance it. The government has financed from its own reserve. There are many mega-projects financed by China. This project has made a centralized market in Dhaka, a huge connectivity with Dhaka. Now, a farmer from Pune can send this community to Dhaka within three or four hours. So local market is connected to Dhaka market. So some people are getting rich and rich. There are some middlemen who are organizing this. And the total economic policy is trickle-down policy. In villages, there are colleges, there are others, facilities. So these people have diverse themes. So they are not caring about democracy, they are not caring about policing, they are not caring about freedom of expression actually, freedom. They are caring about privilege. It's the problem. And some people are raising questions, it's true. But most of them are not raising questions, it's the problem. On the contrary, if somebody lives in Muakhali, away from Dhaka, I think 100 or 150 kilometers, there is a village named Subarna Chowk. There were many gang fights in that village. In recent years, two or three gang fights were discussed nationally. It was a national issue. People have protested for this. The government worker has protested in Kajipur, in Ashulia, but not in Dhaka. The protest was not so big, but in Kajipur countryside, Ashulia, it was a big protest. So there are issues where people protest and there are some issues where people don't respond. It's a mixed scenario actually.

Radio Corax: The organization that you're with, if I understood correctly, is anarchist. How would you describe yourself?

Arif: We have a magazine, or we have a web portal, its name is Auraj, Auraj means anarchy actually. We are translating the English literature, basically like secular literature in Bengali. We've been doing this for three, four, five years now. If you log in our website, auraj.net. We're translating and writing on contemporary issues of Bangladesh. It's basically in Bengali language, I have a book for it. We printed it in 2018 I think. This book is Rudolf Rocker's anarchism, its mission. It is translated by Salim Reja Nurtun. Salim Reja Nurtun is a professor of Rajshri University.

Radio Corax: So what's your goal with these translations? Why take the European anarchist texts and translate them?

Arif: We are translating the theoretical texts, not the others, basically the theoretical texts. We think that there is a blame, there is a poor relation of… And I think these texts are the most… the first Bengali text on anarchism. This text is Peter Kopitkin's "The Spirit of Revolt". This is Michael Bakunin's "Stateless Socialism is Anarchism". This is an anti-authoritarian manifesto. This is not translation, this is a written by my, it's a local text. This is a poetic summary of anarchism, a theoretical text. Actually, this text was written in 2008 when I was a student. There was a big movement in our university. And the name of the movement was "Anti-authoritarianist Movement". One time in Bangladesh, the ruler was a military dictator. So our assembly and rally was banned and we were against it. Our teacher and some student had a silent rally. And they were picked up by the police, picked up by the Rapid Action Battalion. And the emergency law, they were jailed. The whole university then went to protest. And it was a big movement in whole Bangladesh. Particularly in the universities. 82,000 students were named in police cases. It was a very big incident at the time you were in movement.

Radio Corax: I want to get back to the protest and how the government responds at some point. But maybe to stay with your work first. Your aim is just to make anarchism more better known here?

Arif: Yes, yes. We're actually interacting with other intellectuals, other young intellectuals. And the anarchist ideas, visions, we're sharing with them. And some of them are convinced, some of them have influence on their work. And now in Bangladesh there are many intellectuals who are using anarchist jargon in their writing. And I see a change in their writing. It's quite positive. The mainstream intellectuals who are criticizing the government, both of them. They're also receiving our texts. They often ask me, "Have you published anything new?" They often ask me.

Radio Corax: Are there also other anarchist groups with a focus on direct action?

Arif: Actually, we have a very small group. We only have a journal and some publications. But if we want to increase our work, if we want to make our circle bigger, it will take time. I think it will take time. Now I'm working on initiating an independent media. If we can make it, we will be more supportive, something people will join with us. But to initiate an independent media is quite difficult in Bangladesh. We want to make an Internet media platform. There will be some video and basically text, just like an online newspaper. we are organizing with three or four journalists. Here, if you open any domain for news media, you have to register it to the Information Ministry. So I have already applied. They have not been problematic, so I think I will get the papers within a week or two. Because the name of this media is Sbādhīnatā. Sbādhīnatā means Liberty. I want to start it from next December. I think it will take time.

Radio Corax: And you believe you are going to get the license?

Arif: I think we can get it because we have not provided any information that it is anti-government or it is non-propagationary government. We have not given any condition in the application. And if they think this is not so important, there is no big political guy here, they will give the license. So I wanted to take the chance.

Radio Corax: But can't they like retract the license once they find out what you are going to do?

Arif: If they give me the license, then it is very difficult to null and void the laws. So online media, if it is licensed, then rarely blocked, rarely, very rarely.

Radio Corax: But that does bring me to the question of repression and government reaction. Because you already told me that these protests back then, that the police sued everyone. How possible is it to voice anarchist ideas or this whole liberation manifesto?

Arif: Actually, the government does not think we are a challenge to them. So they don't give any importance to us. So we are doing our translations. We are open and sometimes we introduce ourselves in broader light. We are anarchists. No one has disturbed us. The Government has not, the police has not even threatened me any time, actually. And I think if it is intellectual, then okay. But if you are in a street, then that's not so. I think if we go to protest in a street, then they will take it seriously. Then they will go to fight us or beat us. They can sue also. But if it is intellectual, you can write, you can publish. No problem. They will not take it so seriously. So they only react if people actually start to meet in the streets and have a protest. But they don't react to where ideas are exchanged.

Radio Corax: But at some point you are going to reach that phase.

Arif: But there is some problem there. If you criticize the Bangabandhu, the father of Sheikh Hasina, then it's a problem. If you spread hate speech against Muhammad or Bangabandhu or Islam, then it's problematic.

Radio Corax: Wouldn't you at some point also have to write an article about anarchism and religion and thus maybe criticize Islam?

Arif: Then the religious community can react. The government will not react. But if you spread hate speech in the particular name of Muhammad, then it's problematic. If it makes a big issue, then government will take it seriously. Otherwise not.

Radio Corax: It's probably not going to be a problem very quickly, but don't you feel that at some point you will probably reach that conflict stage?

Arif: There must be conflict stage because when we write on a particular issue, just like the police, the army and politics, these issues are very critical. The Government takes it very seriously. Then it's a problem. Though I have openly written an article on abolition of police, abolition of army, but still now, many one has read it. The government politicians also read it because I am a journalist, so many one knows it. Opposition leaders also read it, but they have not taken it so seriously. Sometimes I have some bitter experience also. I had written on the topic of digital security act, basically on 57th section. Then they didn't threaten me, but asked me many questions in a one to one sitting, in my office. They asked me many things. I think the first time they taken it seriously and asked me many questions. But that was full stop, no further action. If we go to protest in the street, then the government will take us very seriously and crack down on us. So, before that, we have to be organized in a big sense, a good number of people, with a good number of people.

Radio Corax: So how is that going to happen? How do you organize people in Dhaka?

Arif: It will take time, actually. I think it will take time, because it demands many time. We have to move many places, we have to make friends with many people, and this will take time. Community organizing is a different one. If we publish a newspaper, if we publish some literatures, if we can initiate a simple academy or a study group like that, then we can be connected with many people, then we can be organized with them. But this is a middle class people, I think. All people are middle class. If I am a government worker or a labor leader, then it was more easy to organize with working class people. In our case, it's an organization problem, and in Bangladesh, the students are not workers, and the workers are not students. There is a division, you know it. In Bangladesh, the students are not going for working in government places or in coffee shops or in other places. Their entity is not a worker or laborer.

Radio Corax: But that leads to the obvious question, wouldn't it be important to reach the working class in that sense?

Arif: This is actually, Moin or other labor leaders can say it very well. I have very little experience, very little experience. I just can observe it. We have to go to the worker, basically the village where the worker lives, and we have to make the relations in social form, actually. Not to be a vanguard and I have came to organize you, not like that. This is social friendship, and through friendship, we have to organize. And I don't think there is any other alternative for all of it.

Radio Corax: In Europe, there are social centers or autonomous centers where often anarchists organize and they create a small space with concerts and stuff like that. Do you have any kind of places like that where people can just go and have a small glimpse at a different way of living?

Arif: There are very limited places in Dhaka, actually. It's very crowded in Dhaka. We have no place for get-together or what we call "adda". We have to sit in coffee shop or we have to sit in office, canteen, etc. But in a common space where we meet each other, all people come and meet each other. Shahbag is one place, but it's not so big. It is the link of the two lifelines Avenue of Dhaka, Meetmeo Avenue and Kajinoj-ul-Islam Avenue, and this is beside this. It is near the Dhaka University. Besides, there is no place where people can meet each other. Once, a decade ago, there was a place named Muktangon. Now this is a big hotel there, I think. But the working class people, they don't go to Shahbagh. It's basically students, middle class people, journalists, publishers, writers, poets, they go there. But working class people, they have no place to go.

Radio Corax: From what I've seen in the last few days, there is a lot of very poor people here in the country in general. There is a lot of people that don't have a regular job and at the same time, like this street, there is one tower after the other that some rich person builds. The difference in social standing is so large that I feel like people should feel angry about that in some sense. Is there any place where that can be felt? Or where people organize because of this injustice that's happening all the time? Or are they so busy with trying to survive?

Arif: I think you have seen the roadside beggars and other people. Most of them migrated from the south side. What is happening? Climate change and for this reason they are basically climate migrants. Maybe they have land, they were farming there, but for the climate change or other problems, all have been destroyed and they came to the city. It's a problem in the way that there is no reconstruction or reconciliation. It's completely in our south coast basically. Most of the poor people's property is in the south coast and in North Bengal there are two or three districts. Their social insecurity is and government is spending money, but this small public fund and money is going to endure and the people actually are not getting anything. I have contracted many ones, but these people actually want something in hand. If not, we will protest, then the government will come and the journalists will write, the writers will go and it will be a big issue. Then the government will take initiative and we are getting something, not like that. They want it very soon to provide them just when they want, then they will be happy. But otherwise they are not as you, let's go, protest and come to government. There is a colonised mentality still now in our society. Their colonial mentality, colonial rules has ruled 200 or 250 years here, so there are colonised mentality. In 1943 there was a famine in Bangladesh, in Bengal actually, Bangladesh and West Bengal, which is in India. Then Calcutta was our capital city. In Calcutta there was a big coffee shop or food court, people on the contrary on the footpath is dying or starving. This is the situation, they do not get into the hotel or look into it. This scenario I think can not emerge in India. But in Calcutta these people are dying, starving, they are hungry, but they do not get into the hotel or look into it. So why not, this is colonial mentality, I have no idea why people behave like this, but it is history. I have read it, in many books I have read it, once you can see the picture of the Great Famine to Zainul Abedin. You can write his name, he is a great artist, Joynul Abidin. He has drawn many pictures of famine of 1943 and in Calcutta city many people die on the street, in Bengal also, in this part of Bengal also. Why people do not get into the hotel or restaurant or big house and loot or take food, I do not know, why not.

Radio Corax: But I think it is interesting that you mentioned this colonial mindset, observing like what is happening in the United States and Europe. Do you think there is something different about anti-authoritarian movements here, like other aspects that you would say have to be different for it to work in Bangladesh?

Arif: The issue makes a difference, culture makes a difference, history makes a difference, but now we all are in a liberal economy and we have the same impact. So there are common ground rules, so at first we want to fight on the common ground and there must be, but the way of organizing may be different, may be different. If we go to the street and make friends and be organized, then we can understand it clearly. So the university situation is different, but the mass people movement is different. So I think when we will be in a street with mass people or be organized, then we can understand clearly. But the way of understanding in Bangladesh or Europe may be different, but we have a common agenda against the new liberal economy. If we cannot make an alternative, then it will sustain and it will persecute people and in Bangladesh basically it's the new liberal economy which is the biggest spectrum of this kind of fascist rule or you can say totalitarian rule. This is the main clue.

Radio Corax: So because you also wrote the manifesto, could you maybe summarize what this alternative would be for you?

Arif: In this manifesto, I just wrote four things. What is authority? And there I said authority has four phases. First is through land, second is through capital, third is through gender, fourth is through body and culture, etc. So I have written these facts actually, how and why. My friend has translated this text into English. I will send you that. Are you connected with other groups outside of Bangladesh? We have many friends, but we have not formally registered with any group, because actually Auraj is not organized as a trade union or other group. But we have no objections involving or making friends with other groups. We have no problems with that. And when anyone asks us or contacts us, there's a response, always a response. Actually, personally I don't want to get into the sectarian fight of anarchists in international front. But we can make friends with anyone. If they can give me any kind of advice or friendly message or other...

Radio Corax: So, right at the beginning, when you were listing the large problems here, you also said nationalism is a problem. Now, I've seen the military posters. On Wednesday, there was a holiday and we went to one of the celebrations. It was really interesting to see all the flags and all the pride in the country. So, how is that actually a problem in regard to people who want to live without a flag?

Arif: Actually, the root of nationalism here is from 1952, 1952, in our language movement. It is the root. There may be previous history, but it was the root. Then 56% of people of Pakistan speak Bengali and others in different languages. So, we have a language-based nationalism. It was in the early 60s and late 60s, the whole decade, nationalism has made formations. But it was not so hard. It was a soft version. It was a soft version because at the same time, in Bangladesh, the socialist movement was being strong, so much strong. And half of the nationalists were involved or were welcome to socialism. So, there was a mixed situation of nationalism and socialism in the 60s and 70s. But we are seeing a different version of nationalism from 2001-2002. It's a totally different version. In certain times, we hear about the nationalist leader calling for the rights of poor. But now, no nationalist leader or nationalist activist are seeking or calling for the rights of any poor people or laborers. So, we can understand this. Actually, this is the sign that makes us understand that nationalism is growing in a new version. It's transformed, actually. And all are making just the slogans and some rhetorics that "Bangabandhu, Bangabandhu" everywhere. "Sheikh Hasina, Sheikh Hasina" everywhere. They are not explaining anything, just slogans. Just slogans. So, just called. This situation is new. Actually, Bengali Jatiyatabada or Bengali nationalism, Bangladeshi nationalism, has its own fascist direction. Bengali nationalism is based on ethnicity and like-mindedness. Bangladeshi nationalism is based on religion and citizenship. So, there's been a shift from the people who speak the same language to a citizenship-based nationalism? It's called that, but actually, what is the nationalism of India? Indian nationalism or Hinduism? It's Hinduism. But they called it Indian nationalism. On the contrary, in Pakistan, there's Islam. But they called it Pakistan nationalism. The Bangladeshi nationalism is the same. So, the role of Islam has taken a lot bigger now. They called it citizenship-based, but actually not citizenship. Actually, Islam and pro-Islam, the sentiment of Islam.

Radio Corax: So, there's also been a turn towards more religious, more strict?

Arif: More strict and they're anti-secular. They're Bangladeshi nationalists given four principles in our constitution. They've established four principles. First is believe in Allah. Believe in Allah, not God. Believe in Allah, actually. The Muslims call their God Allah. Believe in Allah. Number two, nationalism. Number three, economic socialism. Number four, democracy. Four principles. It's quite similar to the Indonesian system under Suharto. Because it was also the military, democracy and socialism until they killed all the communists. It has also four pillars or four principles what they've constituted in the Bangladeshi constitution. Number one, democracy, socialism, secularism and democracy, socialism, secularism and nationalism. So, there are these two groups and others groups also, as who fight, as who blame each other. And people, all of us media, all of us media, our media, all of us blame each other.

Radio Corax: I have two important questions I want to ask and then we can wrap it up. One is, looking at the next few years, if nothing changes in how people are acting and what's happening, where do you see Bangladesh developing, like what's going to happen in the next few years? So, with this government and no large protest movement?

Arif: It's very difficult, but I think in 2018 there was a protest. And this protest was for road safety. This two-wing student, as protestors, they occupied all the streets of Dhaka and it was totally blocked. I think about five, six black students were in the street, Gokulshan Street, Maripur Street, Kajinoor, Islamabad, all the Dhaka streets was blocked completely. No car, no bus was on the street, was on the road. But that movement didn't call up the government. They come, police come, and finally they fit out the student. They shoot, they burn the ruling party cadres, beat them, police use batons, bullets, everything. I think people have an anti-sentiment about the government. People are not happy with this government, but they are thinking about the alternative. The middle class actually think an alternative, because they have seen the rule of BNP and previous government. So between these two, they have a bitter experience with the BNP, basically in the form of Islam. It stalks the middle class. So I think there will be a new polarization in Bangladesh. People, I think, must organize in many forms. If they are not organized in a big platform like the workers, students, and other communities, then it will be very difficult to challenge the government. 0But there is some second form. Sheikh Hasina is now about 76-78. In the next election, we will have it in 29. So in that case, she will be 82 or 83. After Sheikh Hasina, the political situation of Bangladesh must be changed, because only as known to Sheikh Hasina. So this party will be blocked, or this party will be an inter-class. So the situation will be changed. I think that on the contrary, the BNP has to change their leadership. And there are some symptoms also. The principle is that Tarique Rahman is not popular to people. But Khaleda Zia is popular, quite popular. But she is ill, she is in bed, and Tarique Rahman is in the wrong room. If Tarique Rahman is not leaving the supreme leadership, the BNP cannot come to fight. So there are many ups and buts. But at last, people will choose their leader. People will choose their organic leader, actually. People will make their organization in their way. But if it's not in a natural scale, I mean, for the country, then the protest is localized, and this cannot challenge the country. If this is a nationalized organization, national platforming or confrontation, anyway, then it can actually protest the government. It can challenge the government, I think.

Radio Corax: So now would be like the second part. What would be something that you think would be necessary now to get closer to the anti-authoritarian ideals, apart from organizing more? Is there some step that you believe is necessary?

Arif: Actually, first, necessarily, we're initiating some new platform just in the media, actually. We want to make a public education house. So this organization is a supportive organization of the anarchist movement or an anarchist current of movement. But the main organization should be built up by all of the parties, like media journalists, like the students, the workers, and other part of the society. So there must be a huge consensus with us. There must be a huge sharing with us. There must be a huge interaction. But these are the preconditions to build up our organization. We are on the preconditions stage, actually. So as I have met you, I wanted to know how the community radio function, how you're organizing, how you're making stories. So these are very important for us. Then these types of expertise and advice, that's the new revenue for us. And I think through this way, we can make a little organization of independent media, a small organization of independent media. These small organizations can be the supporting organization for an anarchist movement. And then we can interact with the other part of the society and in organic movements also. So this is, I think, this will help. This is the big help, actually.

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